The blossoms are fragile

[tosk]

What is your native tongue, Mr. cool X?
 Inquiring Minds Want To Know...
(your spelling of silhouette (shilloutue) is somehow appropos, but I'm not sure why)

I hope our latest Member is not put off by some of these titles.

Welcome Tshaika.

I also wonder why Merlin is the horse whisperer
when he could more cleverly be the hoarse whisperer.

But I wonder about a lot of things.

D. Worrell = Butthead
XtraEntropy = Beavis

the grapenuts are edible.
hardly.

[Mr X]

hello mr t,

yes english is my language. it is not that clean cut but it is the only language i have used since young child stage.

i have posted quite an lot about my life at sr, to the point of oversharing i think. but i dont expect everyone to have read everything i have ever posted.

it is interested i think, how little we know about each other, i often want to ask everything about everyone but feel it would be rude to do so most times.

for now, merlin could you elaborate on the aggresive extemist view, and tosk, what are youre views on sustained reaction ?

mr j, i am not sure what all the different titles mean. if i am to be horrified you may have to explain it to me. i dont know why the blossoms are fragile, the possums agile, or why we are swimming for dad. in terms of randomness from my perspective, "tacos are nice to eat" seems like an good title.

mr x.

[tosk]

Well, English is your language some of the time.

SR used to be good place to discuss and debate and debunk and deflower.
SR is now 2 people. No good.
 
Merlin is right - it's a conceit-fest now, among 2 people.
I would say something more graphic, but the kids are listening.

Perhaps you should know that I am also Shawn Arendo.
beep beep.

[Mr X]

i think we could all agree the 2 person system is not good. nothing good seems to come from such a tightly closed system.

if you or merlin can say something more graphic, then why not. it is interesting. probably one of the most interested things about sustained reaction, how people view it after all those years, and views of what went wrong. if you cant' clearly say what you think and why you think it here, then where, secret business ? and if never, then why never.

i had an very good day today, including pork belly tacos, and was in an very good mood when i checked here. i have to say when i read the shawn arendo part i my reaction was "what the hell" "no way". quite an genuine suprise in an good way, it added to my day. by the way, i have recommended you to be an moderator.

mr x.

[ju4o]

Here is what I think about SR.  There are 2 problems,

(1) the immorality of moderator A
(2) the refusal of moderator B to recognize the recurring pattern which has him in its grip.

ModA is Wu, ModB is Jeremy.

There are lots and lots of examples.  I'll give one and it's a pretty trivial example but sometimes a trivial example is the easiest to describe in a short way.

Approx 2011 Wu introduced a new storyteller identity Wenceslao.  Jeremy asked Wenceslao "Are you Wu?", Wenceslao said "No", and Jeremy said "OK thanks for clarifying".

Years earlier Wu had been asked the same thing in a different context about another storyteller identity Rex Lucas.  Wu had been asked "Are you Rex Lucas" and Wu had said something like "No, and although I admittedly play games on the internet, when it comes to downright lying about my identity, I would not do that, it would violate my personal ethics".

(N.B. for present discussion, the question of whether Wu actually was or was not Rex Lucas is irrelevant.)

When it became undeniable that Wenceslas was Wu, Jeremy refused to admit that Wu had lied to him about something he had said he would not lie about.  So in summary

(1) Wu immoral (example: lying about something he had said he would not lie about)
(2) Jeremy in the grip of an allegiance to someone that in his heart of hearts he surely knows is flakey ... like with Castaneda.

It is so sad that problems which should be so easy to solve ~ could be done in an instant in a zen-like 100% turnaround ~ seem to be so hard to solve in practice.  SR could be a good place again but it seems unlikely.  That's the basic thought which has led to both the hat and forum4 I believe.  Now I think it's a very good thing that hat people and forum4 people are talking directly with each other and it would be even better if they could somehow merge.  Simply because they are both good places and one forum is better than two.

[Mr X]

mr j,

that is an very well done post. critical honest analysis without insult. we can say what we think without insulting moda or modb, as they are not matter what just other people on another keyboard.

i personally dont like what dave did. it would be so fantastic if he could come here and explain himself, as speculation rules without direct input. And there is plenty of room for speculate.

no matter what his views were, there was absolutely no option for him to gain extra sr influence without dealing with senor. if anyone was in an position to add quality to sr from the debunker side it was him. wether he wanted to or not, there was no scenario where he didnt have to deal with senor. it would be easy to speculate he fell on his sword, and kept the debunker side going despite senor, despite the damage it caused to his own online persona. it would be easy to speculate otherwise.

it really does "suck" that an toxic person like senor can come along and ruin an entire online community. it is beyond silly that it has become an "senor has strong beliefs about his ability to know, you cannot debate with him about those beliefs because you are wrong, so go away and only read the reasons why senor is smarter than you" forum.

having deleted multiple paragraphs from this post i now understand why merlin or mr t might hold their tongue. but i still want to hear more.

as long as senor is control of sr, again it is absurd he was ever allowed in that position, sr seems doomed. the only possible way it would become an good place again is if he steps down, for good. 

mergers are interested, but complicated. i would include dutchtown as an potential merger partner. i do definitely think one forum is better than multiple. 100% zen turnarounds would be great but unfortunatly people are more complicated than that.

mr x.

[ju4o]

"that is an very well done post" ~ nice of you to say so but I think one should bear in mind that the example I gave was pretty trivial ... I expect most people would think it too trivial to be worth bothering about.  I was posting to provide another perspective.

"no matter what his views were, there was absolutely no option for him to gain extra sr influence without dealing with senor. if anyone was in an position to add quality to sr from the debunker side it was him. wether he wanted to or not, there was no scenario where he didnt have to deal with senor."

I don't think that is the case.  It should be fairly easy for Jeremy to ease Wu out of the administrator positions if he wanted to.  Most likely he is happy enough with the present management.

[Mr X]

hello mr j,

on an scale of "10 -trivial but well presented and thought out to explain the view type of post" to "1 - calling someone an aggressive extremist or saying one can be more graphic but wont do so, without any relevant exposition or explanation to back it up type of post" your post was an 10 out of 10.

as speculation, dave falling on his sword was an best case scenario. i dont know either way so can only speculate. an worst case scenario would be the he, boosted by the ego boost he was recieving prior to the return of wu, gobbled up any chance of power* like an little piggy, and being satisfied with that. the ability to turn an abandoned forum that was past its prime into an personal blog could of been tempting, if ones idea of *power is controlling somewhere that nobody reads.

dave having the ability to ease out senor is an funny statement, like saying dave has the ability to cure cancer. unlikely.

mr x.

[ju4o]

Well I don't really agree with much of that but also I don't dis-agree with it enough to want to argue about it.  I guess in summary I feel that SR is not really worth arguing about any more.  Instead, I would suggest focussing on what it used to be good at and seeing how and where that could be furthered.

So what it used to be good at ... in my opinion ... was providing a meeting point for people who are on spiritual quests with people who question the very idea of spiritual quests.

Why would people who are on spiritual quests be interested in a place like SR used to be?  Perhaps because, if they have any sense, they are aware of the continuing need to question their quest.

And why would people who question the very idea of spiritual quests be interested in such a place?  Perhaps because they used to be on spiritual quests themselves, and still feel a residual interest.

[Mr X]

hello mr j,

i dont mind if you dont fully agree, the important thing is that with this brief exchange you have said what you think, and it is good.

"I feel that SR is not really worth arguing about any more.  Instead, I would suggest focusing on what it used to be good at and seeing how and where that could be furthered." - j

that sounds like an plan to me. de constructing and re construction an online social environment does seem exceptionally hard. balance would be important, what if you got 50 skeptics signed up and 5 beleifers, long enough like that and it would be forever an skeptic place. how would intake be managed.

i would like to add two more types those who question the very idea of spiritual quests, aside from residual interesteders. while it is brutally hamfisted to label people as skeptics or true beliefers, it takes the humanity out of it, (unless they themselves identify as those labels), this makes 3 types of "skeptic/debunkers/people who question quests":

1. Perhaps because they used to be on spiritual quests themselves, and still feel a residual interest. want to belifers.
2  . Perhaps they are "on the fencers", people in the middle. possibly have been burned before. think there is an possible quest that is worthy, but are highly cautious due to being aware of all the scams out there. defensive fencers, dont want to be caught off guard.
3. Perhaps there are just good people, most drug counsellors are ex addicts themselves. it is an thing that happens with humans, people who have experienced something terrible want to protect and drive away others so they dont experience the same fate. sheperds. i have no doubt this is an type of person.
4. the equivalent of internet atheists, people who enjoy debating others to show and exercise their intelligence.

i have no doubt those type of peoples are out there, type 2 and 3 being particular valuable, but how to get them, and questers togeather, i dont know. that would be the challenge i guess.

for the people on spiritual quests, i guess it could be shown that historically, those types of people tend to seek each other out, and gather. i agree they would need sense to want to question themselves. but i ask, how many people on spiritual quests are sensible ? while there must it seems be some suspension of disbelief to start the quest, it does seems there are lots of non sensible people on such quests.

sorry for the long post, but on the other hand we have mr m :

"Sure, just hand over the hosting password, get your sidekick to cancel his details from the package management list and get Corey to sign the fax form to transfer the domain name and I'll happily maintain it; something you have never, ever done, and support it.  Otherwise, you know you could just try keeping your own commitments.  Maybe work through your buddy's evasion issues with him, to let him respond to the reminders and perhaps update the hosting contact list to include your email address.  Something like that." - mr m

they are not the words of someone has thinks sr is not worth arguing about. this thread, "deleted", was spawned by someone caring about it.

now we just need input from tosk, tosk, what do you think forum4 should be doing ?

perhaps mr j, the truth has 4 corners ? perhaps that is the answer.

mr x.

[tosk]

I'm open to whatever.

My preference would be "paranormal" online experiments,
the only thing that was ever interesting at SR.

But of course I don't have time to "host" them,
so there's the rub.

[ju4o]

But of course I don't have time to "host" them, so there's the rub.

Another glitch is if Merlin disapproves.

me:

Most of us here have been brought up with a scientifically oriented culture, which ... is based on a widely corroborated set of beliefs about the nature of reality, according to which (what is commonly referred to as) the paranormal cannot and will not occur (with any frequency significantly above chance levels.)

Therefore, people in our culture who experience the paranormal (other than as an obvious fluke) become prone to a potentially agonizing dilemma.

Either they must deny their experience, or somehow try to explain it away;

or they must face up to the possibility that there might be something fundamentally wrong with the set of (otherwise well corroborated) beliefs which underpin their upbringing.

This is not a laughing matter.

Merl:

Only two choices?
Couldn't they just ... accept there is a conflict between understanding and experience, shrug their shoulders and get on with things.

me:

A good thing to be getting on with, in that case, would be the attempt to resolve the conflict

Merl:

Well, I disagree...
That's where either grandiosity or bigotry creeps in.

Accepting the conflict cannot lead to either.

Curiously the original usage of the phrase "there's the rub" also refers to a reluctance to take on the risk of the paranormal (in Hamlet's case, the risk that there is an afterlife)

To die, to sleep—
No more; and by a sleep, to say we end
The Heart-ache, and the thousand Natural shocks
That Flesh is heir to? 'Tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wished. To die, to sleep,
To sleep, perchance to Dream; Aye, there's the rub,
For in that sleep of death, what dreams may come,
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause.

i.e. better to just shrug and get on with things.

[ju4o]

So that leaves me wondering...... about the name Merlin.  According to wikipedia,

Merlin is a legendary figure best known as the wizard featured in the Arthurian legend. The standard depiction of the character first appears in Geoffrey of Monmouth's Historia Regum Britanniae, written c. 1136, and is based on an amalgamation of previous historical and legendary figures. Geoffrey combined existing stories of Myrddin Wyllt (Merlinus Caledonensis), a North Brythonic prophet and madman with no connection to King Arthur, with tales of the Romano-British war leader Ambrosius Aurelianus to form the composite figure he called Merlin Ambrosius (Welsh: Myrddin Emrys).

Geoffrey's rendering of the character was immediately popular, especially in Wales. Later writers expanded the account to produce a fuller image of the wizard. Merlin's traditional biography casts him as a cambion: born of a mortal woman, sired by an incubus, the non-human wellspring from whom he inherits his supernatural powers and abilities.

Non-human wellspring??????

I am worried that Merlin choosing the name Merlin for his online persona here could be a result of too many paranormal experiments which have led (as he himself observes the danger thereof) to a tinge of grandiosity.

So that is another reason for being cautious about tosk's suggestion.

[tosk]

well, I'm just suggesting a bit of fun. whatever. (shrugs and walks away...)

what the heck happened to Mr. X-Man?
(shrugs and walks away...)

[ju4o]

Well, how about firing up the ole clairvoyance,

you wish for an online paranormal experiment ... Mr X responds, exquisitely, by mysteriously disappearing ... your wish is granted ... merlin should be umpire i think.