sustained re action

[Mr X]

hello mr j,

that is weird, why would he obsess over his shamans but not let them speak. maybe to gatekeep ?

the extremely friendly wikipedia entry on sanchez suggest he is similiar to ruiz. sort of true but not quite.

if the nazgal formula was plotted as an data graph, it would be casta as center point, then in an spiral outwards, based on significant data points, kenneth feather, sanchez, then ruiz. sanchez being much closer to feather by far.* feather and sanch being the closest to pro casta there was. feather being way more pro. fading into the casta based but not hardcore ruiz.**

sanchez isnt more annoying than any other toltec. it is an bit annoying, i admit, that of all the many thing in the world that i could of become an expert in, i know about toltecs at all. i could of become and expert at touching the maximum amount of boobs, but dam, toltecs, the least they could do is not be idiots.

i also admit i will first look at pirating the Prechtel book based on the fact i probably wont read all of it. if he is not popluar enough to be pirated then i guess i will buy it. he sounds like an ass, but

"we are all scoundrels"

agreed. we are also scamps.

mr x.

ps. for note, i have never bought and sanchez book, i just have some from and pile of stuff i inherited and few years ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZW15uCKGw8

* there would also be an seperate but mirror like graph, yada yada yada, clear green. i dont know what would be the next plot point on that graph, but there would be one.

**just for note there are lots of curiosities in that fade.

ppss.

ms z, you are tough. thanks for the tourist and customer insight.

[ju4o]

Well it could be understandable, just, if you are not familiar with Prechtel, because his Guatamalan Maya training is a bit far away.  But it puts your expertise under the spotlight.  Have you read Pinkson?

True account of a decade-long apprenticeship with Huichol shamans in the Mexican Sierra Madre

• Contains an insider’s view of the Huichol’s shamanic spiritual practices, including their ritual use of peyote

• Offers the Huichol path to sustainable healing for individuals and our planet

Never conquered by Europeans, the Huichol--known for their use of peyote in spiritual ceremonies--have thoroughly retained their ancient way of life. Growing from a deeply rooted respect and reverence for the natural world, the Huichol’s shamanic spiritual practices focus on living life in harmony with all living things and offer a path to a truly sustainable future.

The Shamanic Wisdom of the Huichol is the autobiographical account of Pinkson’s decade-long immersion in the shamanic traditions of the Huichol tribes of the Sierra Madre in Mexico. From his first Huichol pilgrimage to Wiricuta (their sacred homeland) in 1981 to searching the desert for the heart medicine of peyote, Pinkson’s account of his initiation into the medicine teachings of the Huichol brings new life to this ancient eco-centric tradition. Providing a guiding light for those who seek to become part of the solution to our planet’s ecological challenges, Pinkson empowers readers to choose their own path toward healing both on a personal and a planetary level.

That should be right up your street and if you are not already familiar with it then I begin to think that your much vaunted expertise in this kind of thing is mythical.

[Mr X]

hello mr j,

please, what on earth.

i experience sympathetical embarrasment when people associate casta with mexican indians or peyote. embarassing because it so dumb and short sighted, like the video you posted with the guy who mentioned casta. nobody who makes those associations is and toltexpert.

for starters, i am an self proclaimed toltexpert, not knowing about pretchtel or pinkson means nothing to that status. you dont know about feather or mares or many others (real actual people who operate under the banner of "toltec" who actually really have effected real peoples live in culty ways, and continue to really do so, really). is there an reason why some unrated persons Guatamalan Maya training would change my mind.

"the Huichol’s shamanic spiritual practices focus on living life in harmony with all living things and offer a path to a truly sustainable future"

the hoochies can live in harmony with daesh. well done.

"the heart medicine"

also know as the super tripping super trip.

"Pinkson’s account of his initiation into the medicine teachings "

initiation into the super trip. or. medicine teachings.

" Providing a guiding light for those who seek to become part of the solution to our planet’s ecological challenges"

yep, totally solutioning the planets problems. have you heard, gay marriage causes extreme weather. totally beliefable the hoochies are solving that with spirit love. it takes more than shamans and peyote mentions to debunk or support casta.

i like the tone of that post, the "ha i got you, you not toltexpert". yet you didnt get me and now i am embaressed for both of us. if you think mention of pretchel or pinkman "gets me", you are dreaming.

(this is actually and really tricky point to lay out but) casta and the "toltecs" he spawned have nothing to do with peyote or easily accessabile mexican traditons. even from debunker point of view.

"Offers the Huichol path to sustainable healing for individuals and our planet"

pffft. really. please tell me, what is sustainable healing. really, please do. i would love to know how that translates to real world realness.

while you are at it, tell me about the mexican super traditions and meanings that spawned castas dj. why did castas dj not give a fuck about regular super mexicans ?

mr x.

ps.
as we have established mr j, you hold some strong new age views. i would also suggest as and side topic we look into those. i promise i will try to not be an ass, but what you belif in, why you belief in that in particular, and what happened in you life that led you to belief that would be interested as and topic. if you state those ideas clearly and carefully, it is entirely possible g, m, t and z would agree with you.

[Mr G]

No, that seems unlikely to me. I am also embarrassed that it's clear I have nothing useful to add to this discussion. I also think it's wise to put a blanket call of "probable nonsense" on anything mysteriously native american or oriental, but then, how would I know? I am embarrassed that J had been telling me that I'm talking nonsense now for years and I was too stupid to understand his code. I'm embarrassed that this is the one outlet I have for speculating about the "supernatural", and therefore it seems to you that I'm kooky. My position is at the fence, not on it. I think that's a perfectly sensible place to be. My belief in something like "God" is irrational, but I function better with it than without it. I have no idea how something like that would work, and I'm not about to impose my irrational beliefs on anyone else.

Yada yada yada, peace on earth.

Your friend,

G.

[Mr X]

hello mr g,

it is funny, you did add useful comments to the discussion. probable nonesense is and nice blanket, we should apply it to all. how would one know is and good starting point.

mr j has an code ? intriguing.

dont be embarassed about this outlet, we are pretty lucky here, this small group. arguing about toltexpertism (twist - mr j is and toltexpert too) is and dead end street, it is on the same level as arguing about klingon grammer. i dont post anywhere else so this is also my one stop place.

i dont think you are kooky. i think merlin is kooky. the idea of exploring supernatural ideas is way more exiciting than speaking klingon.

i find it interesting your feeling of "god". i dont feel that but that is also interesting. (just because i dont feel it doesnt mean its not there yada yada.) talking about it here is definatley not imposing it, so why not.

mr x.

[ju4o]

Hi again Mr X, thanks for asking me about beliefs but at this point in time I feel it would make more sense to mention what I *don't* believe than what I *do* believe ...

The thing is, somehow I just don't actually believe that you are any kind of expert really in toltecism.

Granted I may be wrong.  And, if I'm right, why you are pretending to be an expert is an unsolved mystery.

Anyway, surely better to say what I think.

I'm not asking you to prove you're an expert (but if that's what you want to do, by all means go ahead!) and ultimately whether I think you're an expert or not really doesn't matter at all

i'ts just that having this conversation is increasingly ridiculous without some clearing of the ground.

Cheers!
j

[Mr X]

mr j,

i dont have time for and full post right now. but do you see the conundrum.

to say i an and not and  toltexpert is to say you are and toltexpert.  how could you tell if i was and expert if you were not an experpt yourn self.

i agree about ridiculouus levels being too high, yet you think the clearing of the ground doesnt include youre self. what you dont belief in is all well and good. i directly ask what you do beleif in.


mr x.

[ju4o]

I think it's quite likely that Castaneda's character don Juan was based on a real person.  Is that a belief or an opinion?  It depends on what you mean by belief.

For many people, a belief does not count as a belief unless it is held with pretty much 100% certainty.  At least, that is the Christian ... or, more generally, Semitic ... ideal.

As against that, there is the Hindu or Buddhist ... or Daoist ... or, more generally, Asian ... tendency to view the whole idea of having beliefs as being childish misconstrual of the nature of reality.  I think many Europeans and Americans would be quite surprised to discover the extent to which Easterners think Westerners are childish.

I was startled to read recently that belief is a talent which needs to be cultivated.

[tally-ho!]

gents - peasants - scoundrels - selfxperts - please!

for peace and joy sake, i recommend you try the white queen's method - beliefing *7* impossible things before breakfast!
though this days the number seems to grow exponentially...

gay marriage changes the whether?
a good one to begin with!

so, Mr X, how come?  i also don't think gay marriage is a healthy thing - not for the children they are allowed to adopt, that is - but where does the whether comes into the big picture?

let me go back to sancho pancho - i mean, sanchez: we covered touristic and customer experiences, but, alas, neglected the spiritual!
from a interview with Jordan Gruber, 1998:
http://www.enlightenment.com/media/interviews/sanchez.html (http://www.enlightenment.com/media/interviews/sanchez.html)

E.com: [casta] seems to be very interested in kind of immortality, being able to "run around the Eagle". you seem more interested in helping people to generally get more freedom and in also supporting the native peoples and the Toltecs in continuing their traditions. He seemed so focused on immortality for his little group, and you seem to have a much broader perspective. Is that true?
Sanchez: You are describing it so well ... One of the basic differences is that the Toltec knowledge includes as many people as possible; every little being, everything we relate to, should be included in what we are doing, in the sense that we are all connected with the rest of the people and things living around us.

In this sense, Castaneda's proposals seem to me very restricted. When you get to the point when there is a single group of maybe 16 people led by a Nagual, who are undertaking the task of looking for freedom, you are talking about something that is really far from what ordinary people are living.
...
when we are trying to see our spiritual leader like somebody who is living up in the clouds, with no connection to the material world, then we are wrong.

E.com. They are just people.

Sanchez: Of course. There has been a very strong lesson in the things that happened in the last years of Castaneda. It shows us that when we put a person on some spiritual level beyond human mistakes ... not only is the person a human person, but the sacred and the mundane are always mixed.

E.com: The sacred and mundane are one.

Sanchez: ... If we ... expect the perfect and pure masters we find in books, then it will be very difficult for us as individuals to really have a glimpse of what the look
 for freedom or the look for knowledge could be in the real world. ...
So, this news about Castaneda's interest in economic affairs, in business, and his having problems with his former wife or whatever, ... show us that the man had flaws and that not everything was so perfect with him. This could be understand as a criticism. But ... he was a man like anyone else dealing with problems: business problems, affection problems, family problems ...
E.com: ... Health problems ...

Sanchez: Yes. If we can accept this, then we can understand [that] he was really -- mainly in his earlier works -- really touching spirit.
...
We're never going to be perfect, and that's not the goal anyway, that's just an image in our minds

(toltexperts, does dirty sancho deserve dj answer to  casta saying "i'm just a human being?") 

so - Sancho's goals:
1.to help everyone and every little thing "generally get more freedom".
2. to help Toltecs keep their traditions.
while castas:
to take maybe 16 individuals into a special/weird kind of immortality.

toltexpert and toltexpert, what do you say?
is sancho right about castas' being so "restricted"?

and why doesn't he let sancho, if not join the party to immortality - at least  obese on him as well?

i'm no toltexpert, but imo -
1. flooding an area with tourists maybe help some locals obese, but is totally destructive to local traditions.
and
2. restricted is good. i don't want to have anything to do with sancho - or with daesh - i would like to see them disintegrating and ceasing to exist, on a individual, planetary and multi-universal level.

and as for dirty sancho - funny, he reminds me so much of a dream character i met many years ago... looking at his pic increased that impression, though he doesn't actually looks alike that DC - he replaced dj, who looked genuine earlier in that dream and inspired me fly in circles. then i was back down, talking to dj, and at some moment realized - he was too simple to be dj, he didn't know who casta was when i mentioned him and i thought - "this is not casta's dj. but he is such a nice old man, i'm so pleased i went with him to south america!"
replace "nice" with "dirty"- wala!
+he reminds me more then ever that mexican who squeezed casta vainly promising to show him where dj leaved. could he possibly be really the same person? myth or fiction? or fact?
 the interviewer... smells like s r debunkers', that according to that un-famous thread at The Hat, have some common roots with Scientology.which has its roots in "combination of mundain and secred" - replace "mundain" with hienous... wala! Crowly.
 

[Mr X]

hello mr j,

mr g put it very well, beings near the fence but not on it, i liked that.

it seems to be the difference with our levels of toltecperticm.

as and person who subscribes to the casta got it all from books theory, i think toltecs are an invention of casta, as such i am well versed in the people casta spawned. i can say cool things like "the biggest sign that pretchel and pinkman are not relevant is because i have never heard of them". the only real mystery and point of interest left for me is the full information about missing details, such as the death of the witches and the remaining plot points. (very annoying as unlike graph 1, plot points on graph 2 are defined by the distinct lack of information)

you are on the other type, sanchezes wirririka or huchis are interesting because if there was and informant, there is and chance of traces left in similiar cultures. pretchel and pinkman are relevant. it is worth continuing to look and search.  that makes sense from your point of view.
(and i do question the value of such cultures if they cant modernize)

even being toltexerpts, the fence alone can divide us very strongly.

while i like to use sarcasm and hyperbole, and sometimes i think it obvious i am doing so, it is still amusing that i can say self depreciating humour such as

"it is needed to maintain my status as and self proclaimed debunker toltexpert hobbyist"

and be taken seriously.

mr j,  i ddint expect we would get into the beliefs asians have about what they dont belief in, but i did find that interested.

i already knew what your beliefpinion of casta was. i guess it is and stupidley broad question. asking what someone beliefs would be perhaps better said as and survey.

i was wondering more general things. when new agers talk about energy bodies and chakras and meridians, do you agree with them. what do think happens when we die. do you belief in some type of god. yes or no - ghosts, bigfoot, aliems.

when i was reading chapter 8, that week i happened to re read some book of five rings. contrasted to sanchez, concepts such as danger were very different. but still beleifs.

mr x.

ms z, i am just catching up with posting to mr j, i will have to get back to you. for now - gay marriage thing was and joke. i have read those dirtysanchez quotes. they are just and example of nazgulism. talking about dreams is not going to get much response here. that said you are doing well.

mr g, perhaps we need and general supernatural exploration thread. what do you think ?

[Mr G]

That sounds good man, but you should do it.

[Mr X]

I think it's quite likely that Castaneda's character don Juan was based on a real person.  Is that a belief or an opinion?  It depends on what you mean by belief.

For many people, a belief does not count as a belief unless it is held with pretty much 100% certainty.  At least, that is the Christian ... or, more generally, Semitic ... ideal.

As against that, there is the Hindu or Buddhist ... or Daoist ... or, more generally, Asian ... tendency to view the whole idea of having beliefs as being childish misconstrual of the nature of reality.  I think many Europeans and Americans would be quite surprised to discover the extent to which Easterners think Westerners are childish.

I was startled to read recently that belief is a talent which needs to be cultivated.

hello mr j, just revisiting this post.

i am sure in the vatican there would be an high ranking cardinal who beliefs in what he does but he is not 100% certain. so he fill that gap with faith. but he is an beliefer.

what do we call and "belief" that is not 100% ? if not faith is it an hunch, informed or uninformed opnion, a feeling, i am asking you. what do we call the asian style belief without beliefing, for reference.

while we are generalizing billions of people per sentance, asians are also known for their astoundingly incredible abilitys to be rascist. which is pretty childish. asians love them some ghosts too in their beliefs. lots of them are muslims. maybe we could just say human beings are idiots and that is that.

that said, belief being and learned talent and the idea of not holding beliefs is interested. i have been thinking about it and there is something right there on the tip of my tounge, cant quite word it. and example of not belief information based knowledge is simple, we dont need to belief that fire hot, dont touch fire. the interested part is how far can that go, how far can not belief be taken.

for some people, habernaero hot, stop eating. for others habernaro good, keep eating. is that and difference of opinion or of non beleif.*
*not the best example, like i said, cant word it.

for note, i will be looking into pretechel and anythinge else you recommend. but it is and case of i wont have anything to say about that next week, more like next year, or the next.

50 years from now, when i am telling my grandkids tales from the ancient internet - castanet edition, i dont want them to ask "so did the leads from mr j go anywhere" and answer "i dont know, i never checked, i assumed i already knew everything."

mr x.

[tally-ho!]

talking about dreams is not going to get much response here.

what? art thou toltexpert sir?
it's like a shakespert would refuse to talk about  theater...
"RESPETABLE shaxperts pay attention to manuscripts - essays - dissertations - encyclopedias..."

dream is the toltec arena, mister, not comparative sancho-pancho toltecrature!

gay marriage thing was and joke.

oh how disapointed! such an revolutional result of your toltecresearch!

ms z, i am just catching up with posting to mr j, i will have to get back to you.

hmmm... are you behind the mirror, where you have to run with all your might in order to stay in the same place?

[tally-ho!]

 

Mr X: and example of not belief information based knowledge is simple, we dont need to belief that fire hot, dont touch fire. the interested part is how far can that go, how far can not belief be taken.

how far can it be taken. the question is: by whom?

there are horses and there are donkeys.
you can spur a horse to death - a donkey at some point won't move no matter what.

some (people, and others) you can spur to martyrdom, some not.
as the saying goes in my country - suckers do not die, they are merely replaced.


if we fall on our face, it's too evident to disbelief.
is this what you had on the top of your tongue, X?
no matter what! i'll tell aother dream. at age 10-11, after reading a novel about the spanish inquisiton, i dreamed: i'm taken to the torture cellar. they want me to deny my jewish belief - but i don't beleif in it anyway. (in reality i was raised on atheism.) they open the screen to reveal the instruments, to scare the interrogated (a procedure described in that book) - it is freaking scary indeed - and i'm thinking: "no, i won't take torture for a belief i don't belief in the first place! not more than 3 tortures anyway.."*
so was this horse-like or  donkey-like?
 

Ju4o: what do we call the asian style belief without beliefing, for reference.

make-belief?

Ju4o: I was startled to read recently that belief is a talent which needs to be cultivated.

 the classical non-toltex training again - the white queen's: (make?) believe in 7 impossible thing before breakfast.
 
another tequnique - a warrior's which is a strategist by (DJ's)definition:
"The primary thing when you take a sword in your hands is your intention to cut the enemy, whatever the means. Whenever you parry, hit, spring, strike or touch the enemy's cutting sword, you must cut the enemy in the same movement. It is essential to attain this. If you think only of hitting, springing, striking or touching the enemy, you will not be able actually to cut him.”
― Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Five Rings

http://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/1318780 (http://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/1318780)[/url]
(he also said: “It is difficult to understand the universe if you only study one planet” )

I think many Europeans and Americans would be quite surprised to discover the extent to which Easterners think Westerners are childish.

not believing the make-believe - this is The Clap Of The One Hand?
better start training in early childhood...
http://reflectionsinthenight.com/mauri8-16-06.mp3

http://reflectionsinthenight.com/mauri8-16-06.mp3

*luckily, since i'm a female, this was just a dream for me... male  babies with jewish parents are not asked to take the first 3 tortures (Milah, Peri'ah and Metzitza - sucking) out of politeness... they are compalsed to. the rest  - pogroms, Holocaust and so forth  - is also usually not asked a politness... imo the issue jews have with torture and peculiar deaths is a direct cause of this basic jewish experience... a stupid conspiracy? unlike what Iluminaty and satan worshiperd are said to do to children - definitely not!  as someone wrote in comment to some on-line protest to chemtrails: "sounds like another crazy conspiracy... but remember, the holloucast also was a conspiracy - and today there are proves it  was reality."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNNNmsxRoE4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrYyxoFGMhQ

http://kofrim.bandcamp.com/album/the-far-end

[tally-ho!]

...when punishmet hit the marks...
some healing music is so very necessary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAEAwgz8k3U&list=PLE18F0410E22D99F1&index=6 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAEAwgz8k3U&list=PLE18F0410E22D99F1&index=6)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIXE-5NrC3o&list=PLE18F0410E22D99F1&index=7 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIXE-5NrC3o&list=PLE18F0410E22D99F1&index=7)

http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=1741 (http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=1741)

the last link gives the same song with several videoes, all interesting. the last one - surprisingly happy audience - is my favorite.

here are the lyrics:
That's great, it starts with an earthquake
Birds and snakes, an aeroplane, Lenny Bruce is not afraid

​​Eye of a hurricane, listen to yourself churn
World serves its own needs, don't misserve your own needs
Feed it up a knock, speed, grunt, no, strength, no
Ladder, structure clatter with fear of height, down height
Wire in a fire, represent the seven games
In a government for hire and a combat site

Left her, wasn't coming in a hurry with the furies
Breathing down your neck
Team by team, reporters baffled, trump, tethered crop
Look at that low plane, fine then

Uh oh, overflow, population, common group
But it'll do, save yourself, serve yourself
World serves its own needs, listen to your heart bleed
Tell me with the rapture and the reverent in the right, right
You vitriolic, patriotic, slam, fight, bright light
Feeling pretty psyched

It's the end of the world as we know it
It's the end of the world as we know it
It's the end of the world as we know it
And I feel fine

Six o'clock, TV hour, don't get caught in foreign tower
Slash and burn, return, listen to yourself churn
Lock him in uniform and book burning, blood letting
Every motive escalate, automotive incinerate

Light a candle, light a motive, step down, step down
Watch a heel crush, crush, uh oh, this means no fear
Cavalier, renegade and steer clear
A tournament, a tournament, a tournament of lies
Offer me solutions, offer me alternatives and I decline

It's the end of the world as we know it
It's the end of the world as we know it
It's the end of the world as we know it
And I feel fine, I feel fine

It's the end of the world as we know it
It's the end of the world as we know it
It's the end of the world as we know it
And I feel fine

The other night I tripped a nice continental drift divide
Mount St. Edelite, Leonard Bernstein
Leonid Breshnev, Lenny Bruce and Lester Bangs
Birthday party, cheesecake, jelly bean, boom
You symbiotic, patriotic, slam but neck, right? Right

It's the end of the world as we know it
It's the end of the world as we know it
It's the end of the world as we know it
And I feel fine

It's the end of the world as we know it
It's the end of the world as we know it
It's the end of the world as we know it
And I feel fine

It's the end of the world as we know it
It's the end of the world as we know it
It's the end of the world as we know it
And I feel fine

It's the end of the world as we know it
It's the end of the world as we know it
It's the end of the world as we know it
And I feel fine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZNqs0YgWkM#t=265