sustained re action

[Mr G]

[ju4o]

Hi G.

Victor Sanchez is interesting because he is the only one, so far as I'm aware, who would actually take his students to meet his teachers.  Thus he is the only one who gave his students any opportunity to check up on his claims to authenticity.

For three years, we had made four attempts to penetrate the area under adequate conditions.  The first three proved fruitless.  The strategy we followed was: Once we had decided to try to enter the desert, we began preparations for the trip in the most conscientious manner possible, and we went ahead as long as there was no sign or manifestation to hold us back.  We summed it up with the simple affirmation, "If the door opens, then we go through; if not, then we return."  And that is how it was.  The first three attempts were aborted almost as we were about to enter.  The door remained closed because of a small argument between two group members, damage to one of the vehicles, lack of integration and coordination of the group as a whole, a storm, some incident with the people of the surrounding towns.

Anyone might think that such signs were too trivial and we could have gone on.  For me there is no doubt we did the correct thing.  Beyond external manifestations, the internal voice of Silent Knowledge hidden very deep within out being, which we can hear if we learn to employ the kind of attention necessary, told me what to do.  At no time was I spurred on by anxiety, nor did I retreat out of fear.  Given that our intent was not obsessive, rather almost indifferent, we returned on each occasion content and without the least feeling of frustration for not having been able to enter that sacred territory.  Although I personally had the dream of someday being able to take a work group to those places, in reality it did not matter at all if one day it happened or not.  In the end, the work was always to meet the challenges presented to us every day of our lives, and these tentative plans in the areas of "intermediate approach" did not form part of our general program.  Therefore, having established that the door would not open, we returned to our previously scheduled experiences that, on the other hand, were very attractive and demanding.

But it did happen, however, that one fine day the door opened, and we went through.

[Mr X]

hello mr j and g,

yes there is and difference between claiming past life memeorys or claiming divine information recieving, and claiming directly passed down information from and family or culture line.

i am saying i find miguels claims as beliefable as someone who claims past life memory as their intital source of information.

1. the inventor of the toltec tradition was an fraud.
2. there is another guy who is part of the toltec tradition, he is totally not a fraud.

the eagle knight tradition, from mexico. knights. ancient tradition. mexico. "knight".
i could understand if there was a small town footbal team in mexico called "toltec knights", or a small pub band, like there would be an "aztecs" and an "mayans'. but and ancient mexican tradition, handed down through the generations no.

in the new age people claim anything. couching it in family ties doesnt mean much. i am sure there are plenty of gurus who claim the same. if don juan had just sat down and wrote and book about him self, we wouldnt be having this conversation, it would just be another new age claim.

as it is now it seems clear he is another casta spawned toltec. if there was record or any evidence of him claiming to be and toltec before casta, and maybe there is, then his claim would be more beliefable. and step up from mares / joesph smith.

victor sanchez is also just from that passage and true beliefer. and new ager to boot. the quote is riddled with belieferness. i am guessing he is an "workshop" shaman now. come in, learn to be spiritual and experience divine insight. its real, because i say so.

mr x.

[ju4o]

Hi x thanks for your reply.  Now I think I'm getting a clearer sense of where we agree and where we don't.

Find their claims somewhat believable? Mares Ruiz Sanchez X no no no J no no yes Interested in the cult? Mares Ruiz Sanchez X yes yes no J no no yes R U OK with that?

[Mr X]

hello mr j,

it is more like,

Find their claims somewhat believable? Mares Ruiz Sanchez X no no no J no no yes Interested in the cult? Mares Ruiz Sanchez X yes-no yes-no yes-no J no no yes

yes for them being part of the wider total view of the casta story. no for them not individually being anything special. there has also been disagreement of the value of the hypothetical cut off point of truth, and the value of of the widescreen picture. i and add - there has been discrepancies about wether some things are interesting or not.*
there is lots interestering about the spin offs. its like and bunch of people were given the same rules and framework - casta material - , and all went off in all sorts of different crazy variations. they all display some characterstics that could help fine tune the image of casta. for example, like sanchez, they all set them selfs up as the gatekeeper to the knowledge. "one fine day - i decided the door opened."

ps. i did watch the video. i didnt' get much out of it, not very interested in yaquis. i didnt especially like the the speaker. if you post more videos i will watch them.

*when scrutinizing any big picture there are parts that are not interesting to look at, but they are still part of the full picture.

could you please give and source for your sanchez quote. when sanchez claims to hear his internal silence voice, he is claiming we are more than meat. that is and big claim to casually make. where is his evidence for that, let alone his super toltecs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tScAyNaRdQ

mr x.

[ju4o]

That quote is from the book which you have, about a fifth of the way through chapter 8, "Omen on the Sacred Mountain".

when sanchez claims to hear his internal silence voice, he is claiming we are more than meat. that is and big claim to casually make.

I guess you are referring to this: "Beyond external manifestations, the internal voice of Silent Knowledge hidden very deep within our being, which we can hear if we learn to employ the kind of attention necessary, told me what to do."

I mentally translate "internal voice of Silent Knowledge" as "intuition".  Sanchez is saying he has a well-developed and reliable intuition.  It's true that not many people dignify their intuitions with capital letters and call it Silent Knowledge, but it's easy enough to translate back into intuition, and to remember that it is probably a common human failing to think that one's intuition is more well-developed and reliable than it really is.

Also many people, perhaps even most people, think that they are "more than meat".

If you decide to not be interested in books written by people who think they are more than meat, then your reading matter will be very slim.

Similarly I mentally translate "toltec" as "central american shamanism".  To me, it's neither dubious nor surprising that shamanistic traditions handed down through generations should survive in the present day.

[ju4o]

P.S. ...... Russians ...... !! ...... hopefully Merlin can advise.

P.P.S. off on hols 4 a few days.

J

[Mr X]

hello mr j,

 good luck on your holidays.

youre mental translator may serve you well, but it is not the thing being examined. if sanchez meant intuition, he would of said that. he meant the deep voice from within our being/meat. he clearly is presenting it as something more than common inutition. you know that.

no doubt that most people think they are more than meat. wether thru reilgion or spiritual or new age or enlarged ego or love or poetry, people think that. there are lots of examples of people beliefing they are more than meat, but the stack of evidence is lacking.

i never said i am not interested in anything any more-than-meat beliefer has written or created. i am ok with wading through uninteresting things looking for the interesting bits.

when sanchez talks of the voice very deep within our beings, he is either talking about the inner voice of meat or an soul like concept, some extra part of us that is not physical. guess which one he is referencing. claiming more than meat is an big deal, it suggests an whole system of non physical things, an entire cosmology, that no one else knows, aside from the claimer. due to the ratio of claims vs evidence through out history, it seems wise to be careful when dealing with meat deniers.

it is very beliefable there are shaman traditions handed down that survived to the current day. it is not beliefable that any of those traditions are the toltec tradition as created and described by carlos castaneda.

do central american shamams mentally translate them selfs as "toltecs" ?

i mentally translate toltec as the thing casta invented, and the rather large and still active network of spin off groups that spawned from him.

ps. i will look up the chapter to see what happens when the door opens. so we will have something to argue about next year.

mr x.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGDA0Hecw1k

[Mr G]

More than meat's the I

I report what I experience only. I must believe in more than meat, my being rebels against it when I don't.

However-

I don't know what it means, what it is, or whether it's due to mental illness.

Therefore-

I cannot attach myself to a religion or a system of mysticism. I think they are probably all hooey.

But-

I experience God, or something. As I am aware that my meat is attached to earth, I am aware that my mind is attached to another thing. I cannot detach from it. It is me, and more.

Yet-

To label, classify or index it seems like a mistakce. It seems it adds another layer to separate my meat and me.

Or-

Maybe I'm crazy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bd2B6SjMh_w

[Mr X]

hello mr g,

interested points.

i admire and respect your meat+ belief, but. how do you know it is not meat rebelling. it seems like meat would want to feel special in order to keep itself alive and active, inorder to grow more meat (procreate). with the complexities of the human mind being capable of making and person feel worthless, and then suicide, it seem advantageous meat would want to think, in an hardwired/typical way, that it is more than just meat.

and average straight man cant help but find boobs or women attractive. they just are, we cant help it. but boobs are just meat in the universe. we are hardwired to like them. there is no need for and god or and cosmology or an meaning for us to like them. no need for an love vibration of energy. just hard coded meat. men have to feel like more than an sack of useless meat to pursue the boobs. some confidence in their own worth. it is part of the process.

i would be willing to bet an testical, well maybe an kidney...no, one of my toes (not the big toe) that nobody knows what it means or what it is. i doubt your experience is mental illness. there is an huge many wide margin for meat to mental illness, in terms of what is considered crazy or what could be crazy. the context matters to, "jesus told me to have a bbq" is fine by society standards if you then lead your congregation outside the church and eat bbq. if you say "jesus told me to have a bbq" to the camera while the handcuffs go on, with an burning police car in the background, people thing you are crazy.

the big religions have and huge following all added up, it appears being meat is the crazy one. "what, you dont belief sky god will take your meat, haircut and clothes to the afterworld ? crazy" being meat+ doesnt seem crazy. and in the context you posted, seems cautious and rational.

i like that you went straight to god, or something. the line between meat and god seems paper thin.

the idea of being more than meat is terrifying.

mr x.

mr merlin, are you meat ? the post you posted and deleted suggested you like ed sheerans meat. and nellie from the office. red meat.

[Mr G]

It is an interesting idea that god is an evolutionary coping mechanism for meatcomputers. It makes some sense to me, and I wouldn't mind if that's the case. Meowever, I am unconvinced that meat and matter are really the best explanation for our state of existence. To my me, it seems there must be something more fundamental than bits of stuff plus some coordinates in speecetime. Those coordinates themselves are meat-free, if you catch my drift.

In fact, the bits of matter can be wholly described by a set of numbers. So I offer here, in a thought container, that the locally observabubble universe could be replaced (by a theoretical "Observator") with a suitably large computer simulation. Indulge me... if all particles of matter can be described digitally, as well as the laws that govern their interactions, it means that we don't really need matter at all. Except for the small matter of the gigantic computer, of course.

I jest - my question is whether my meat is meat at all. What if it's made of multitudinous minute "me's"? (One might call it, mini-me's, if one were obnoxious.)

What if fundamental particles were fundamental units of self awareness, each putting up a tiny hand that says little more than "Hi there, I exist separately from you". How this comes to be seems like a topic for another discussion, perhaps entitled "Genesis". Here's a preview:

Genesis

It was, and then it realised it was, and then there were two things: It, and it's realisation. "Was" was there all along whispering in the darkness.

How the rules of interaction and the different amounts of energy per particle come about is something I'll have to think about some more. But let's face it, these are the cockamamie theorizings of a meat madman.

Excelsior!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eOnm2tYJHs

[Mr G]

Minutes later he thought: "Did I write this crap?"

Hey, just poking at a rock with a stick.

[Mr X]

hello mr g,

let me just say, while i find the meatist view and logical and safe place, i am not an fundameatalist, i am open to to the ideas of meat+ and meat-. it just seems like meatism is an good starting point. we all can agree we are on planet earth, we are meat *, and we are having an converstation. 

when we conversate into areas such as victor sanchez hearing an deep inner voice, should we just assume meat has an inner voice connected no physically to the world, and listen to what his meat+ voice has to say. it makes more sense we would first stop to question wether there is an inner voice that is beyond meat, rather than listen to what the voice says. we cant examine something like casta or some other thing, assuming that just because other people say there is an inner voice then we can brush past that more than meat claim. unless there is some evidence, then we can start from = meat+ inner voice.

the number an coordinates or meat in time and space are interested. meat- , subatomic meat. it is an interesting rabbit hole to go down. starting from meat, it is safe to explore weird ideas.

you meat- ideas seem very psychedelic, an i am not convinced. **

mr x.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X_2IdybTV0

* if we died near hungry cats, the cats would eat us, therefore we are meat.

**evil people also use the term mini me, not just the obnoxious.

[ju4o]

***synchro***synchro***synchro***

Hello I am back.  While Mr G was writing that message about possibly us all living in a simulation, I was a little further up in these mountains where I met a wildlife ranger who when he heard where I was from, said that wolves (which have been steadily increasing their range for the last 30 years) have now easily reached where I live.

I said, then how come we don't hear wolves howling at night.  He said that when I get home I should provoke them to call, by howling at them, and he showed how to do it, how to simulate a wolf howl.  He said that if I do that, then if there are any wolves in the vicinity that night, they will reply.

Simulate a wolf howl, to try to call forth a real wolf.

And now Mr G speaks of a simulated universe and I wonder if the purpose of such a thing could be to try to call forth a real universe.

[Mr X]

hello mr j,

while mr g was typing about digital meatless universes, and you were learning how to yell at wolfs, i was playing in an digital world, hunting wolves with an light machine gun (for the fur and meat). of course that means nothing, i just was.*

i do understand it can be hard to describe why and synchro is relevant and made and impact to ones perception. so i will give you the benifet of the doubt.

simulate to call forth the real, makes sense.

call forth and entire universe ? what.

call forth ?

mr g did note in the meatless digitial universe, there is the small matter of the matter the computer is made of. and the matter in which it is placed(and entire real matter based universe, obviously). and the matter that made it.

what use is the simultated universe, how could it bring forth and real universe, considering the simulation takes place within and matter based real universe.

and mr g, reducing meat down to elements that are not meat, does that add or and make anything special or meanginful to the 3 dimensional meat ? and block of wood is also made up of little bits. does that give the wood meaning or make the wood any more than wood. or is it still just and block of wood in the universe. are all those little bits just there to determine that the wood is wood.

mr j, for note, at last we spoke, i opened the book, to exactly chapter eight. but it was no synch. the gloss photo pages in the middle caused to book to naturally open at that point, when meat hands open the paper pages.

if anyone here is of the christian persuasion and has and xmass, then enjoy your holiday.

yours truly,

mr x.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoAO0851FwA

mr g, bring on genesis.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pkVLqSaahk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0qBaBb1Y-U

ppss. while we are scheduled to argue about sanchez next year mr j, next year i am also planning to very carefully break the law and obtain and series of substances to examine out shamanistic viewpoints for mine self. so i would suggest that is also and topic; is it worth trying/peeking out of the cave at all, is there anything morally wrong with the attempt due to laws, is there anything to gain from such experience, under what ritualistic circumstances should each things be taken, what should be the focus of the experience. and most importantly, if any one want to join in, despite physical disclocation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STB4BzMFDz0

pppsss.
see you all next year.

* (for reference https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLt6T-WeToI)