Victor Sanchez - Toltecs Of The New Millennium

[Mr X]

part one.



there is nine chapters. one after chapter. three before chapters.

acknowledgments, introductions and translators note are the first topics of discussion.

when mr j4 does see this thread and acknowledges it, and gives his view on the first three sections, we can move onto -

part 1 - the toltec tradition.
chapter one - the historic toltecs.

mr x.

[ju4o]

Hi.  It seems we both have the same edition which is convenient as we can simply refer to page numbers.  On page xi in the introduction it says

The principal thesis of this book is that the Toltec Tradition is not a dead tradition to which we can refer only through stories and legends.  It is a living tradition with living practitioners among the indigenous peoples of Mexico.

Of the books I'm aware of, this one and Martin Prechtel's 'Secrets of the Talking Jaguar' are what I would suggest for someone wanting to find out the answer to that question.

Except, there are some problems.  With this book, one problem is that the author is quite annoying, at least in some ways.  If someone finds the author so annoying that (a) they can barely make it through the book, and (b) even if they do they are quite mistrustful of the information in it, then it would be better to find another book.

So perhaps that is the first thing we could discuss.  Here are some ways in which Sanchez is quite annoying.

1) Acknowledgements,

To my father, the Sun.
To my mother, the Earth.
To my brother, the Deer.
To my grandfather, the Fire.
To the Spirit.

His brother is a magical being.

2) Introduction, page xi,

I infiltrated into their separate reality and connected myself with their tradition through agents beyond my comprehension

He made contact with them through magical means.

3) page 104,

Beyond external manifestations, the internal voice of Silent Knowledge hidden very deep within our being, which we can hear if we learn to employ the kind of attention necessary, told me what to do.

He converses with magical entities.

Some people are able to let that kind of thing not bother them.  When he says "voice of Silent Knowledge" I just sort of mentally translate it into "intuition" and leave it at that.  Other people can be quite put off by this kind of thing.  What do you think about it?  If we are going to discuss a book it should at least be not too annoying.

[Mr X]

hello mr j,

yes we have the same edition, confirmed.

yes sanchez is annoying, i was going to quote the 'to my father' thing as my first example of that fact.

there was an book last year that you recommended, that i said i would read this year. i have been thinking about that book, as it now next year - to save me looking it up in old posts, was it the pretchel book ?
i will look about, i would prefer an ebook version so i can read it on my phone.

i cant think of any toltec based author we could examine that i would not find annoying, including casta. i can accept the silent knowledge livery and pass it off as cultural code for intuition. doesnt make sanchez not annoying, but what is one to do.

the possibility of pretchel being not annoying is slim.

this is not my response to the first 3 parts, just my reply to you. but i think so far we are on the same page.

mr x.

[ju4o]

 
I'm not surprised to hear that you find Sanchez annoying.  But what is surprising me is why ever did you start this thread in the first place, given that you already found Sanchez annoying when we discussed him more than a year ago.

The only explanation I can think of is that when you started this thread you had forgotten how annoying you found Sanchez last year.  Maybe, having not thought about him for a whole year, all that remained in your mind was a sense of deep spiritual nourishment, and that is what brought you back to the subject and made you start this thread.  Then, when you had started the thread, and remembered how annoying Sanchez is, you panicked and are now wondering how to salvage the situation.

Well, as I also mentioned last year, I think you might enjoy reading Prechtel's first book.

We are all scoundrels, but Prechtel is a completely different kind of scoundrel from what Sanchez is, and I think of a kind that you would find a whole lot more agreeable.

By the way, Prechtel has written a few books.  If you do read one, I would suggest this first one.  The others are more folklory and somewhat tedious (imo).  The one I mentioned is rip-roaring and hilarious.

[Mr X]

hello j,

your read of the situation is pretty good. although keep in mind when your only have one explanation, its possible you are missing something.

if i recall, i started this thread late on an saturday night. i was very drunk, enough that on sunday, hours after being awake, i remembered posting this thread and considered deleting it.

i was bored of the recent activity upstairs, this topic was something i remembered. i have kept the book around my desk all year so it was not the first time i thought of it.

the measure of annoying is perhaps not the best value we can use. for instance, i find existing pretty annoying. that doesnt mean we shouldnt talk about existence.

i sorta assumed we had decided to cover this topic one day, and i wanted to keep my word. do you think we should abandon this book and plunge into pretchel instead, or should we do both with a stiff upper lip. at about one week per chapter it would only take two months.

there is also not much else going on here at the moment.

mr x.

ps. i forgot to say - mr j please explain the deep spiritual nourishment part, it is an interesting choice of words but i dont quite get what it means in context.

[ju4o]

As a half blood Native American with a Pueblo Indian upbringing, his life took him from New Mexico to the village of Santiago Atitlan, Guatemala. There becoming a full village member of the Tzutujil Mayan population, he eventually served as a principal in that body of village leaders responsible for instructing the young people in the meanings of their ancient stories through the rituals of adult rights of passage.

Here Martín Prechtel describes his first entry into Guatemala:

[tally-ho!]

ohh thanks ju4osito! the pretchel quote was such a healing laughter!

 how does this true nourishment look when it comes to the spiritual?
is casta's jaguar still lurking on the pan-indian highway?*

with us Guatemala didn't agree that much though...
` `` ``` `` ` ` ` `
*hey  - did kasta SAY it's the same story as the puma? i don't remember it this detailed... could it possibly be just 2 different stories after all? never occurred to me... thus i guess he did... could someone confirm?

[ju4o]

You think we should have a more spiritual example?  OK, it is simply a matter of opening the book a little further on, where Martín has become an apprentice of the famous shaman Nicolas Chiviliu Tacaxoy.  As student, he has to accompany his teacher on shamanic outings such as the one described here:

[tally-ho!]

 
what a life well lived!
i'm envious!

reccalling the one time we rowed a canoe to cross some part of the Atitlan lake  (i'm quite sure it was the Atitlan, consulted google map)...
a miserable journey, mostly...
oh why can't i loosen up? sooth the harsh fighting, propitiate forgotten, starved, and  worsheeped, obese gods, and policemen, and jefes, drink intoxicating liquer with them and transform personal power into sheer laughter medicine?

too late...
and too macho anyway!
impossible with all this latent motherhood!
sorry.

[Mr X]

thanks for the pics mr j,

for all the drinking pretchel does, are there any quotes of what he thinks of hangovers.

the idea of getting drunk in the third world and later experiencing 'the fear' would be interesting.

x.

[ju4o]

Yes there are quotes about hangovers,

I awoke more dead than alive, still poisoned by the requisite "canyon water" we'd ritually received the night before.  Like everyone else in the village, I had a bad ceremonial hangover.

......passed unconscious onto the floor of pine needles beneath the low ceiling packed full of corozo palm flowers, whose smell alone could take you to other worlds

I had made my supplications, and not long after I must have succumbed and passed out.  Or, as the Mayans say, I became wounded in the soul's battle ...... when I awoke on a floor full of the wounded, I didn't care about anything except survival.  I wanted only to get the nausea out of my burning stomach, the pain out of my head, and the shivers out of my bones.

It is funny you should bring this up because that third quoted passage is the prelude to one of the more magical passages in the book, where he voyages by "a big old black Cadillac-type car" into another realm.

I rolled and staggered to the doorway.  The delicious morning lake air fled in front of an onslaught of heavy perfume.  Not knowing who to expect, what I saw inspired me to fake a sober air.

[Mr X]

very interesting quotes.

now i want to know what happens after the last quote.

hangovers are underrated, anyone can drink and be merry and enjoy it.

ceremonial hangover is an nice thought. ive never really thought about how that could be part of a tribal or spiritual group experience.

hangovers are an good clean cheap renewable source of pure temporary anxiety. pure because it happens for no reason. well the reason is the hangover but even if you drank in a isolated white room, do nothing to harm yourself or embarrass yourself, it will still happen. and it will pass.

if you know thats why the anxiety exists, it sorta breaks it, you just wait for it to pass. however, if you dont know - the brain automatically tries to reconcile or understand the anxiety or fear, resulting in - ta da - introspection at a deep level. hence sayings like 'i will never drink again' or 'im going to change'. it causes a person to go inside themselves, looking for a solution that doesnt exist. which is not really a bad thing.

i am enjoying this discussion so far, not annoying.

mr x.

[tally-ho!]

Guys
Chilba
Chilba's Bosss
Vasily Ivanovich Chapayev, a Red Army hero of the Russian Civil War, in the rank ofDivision Commander… officially, he was gunned down by the Whites while attempting to flee across the Ural River after a lost battle
Chapayev is usually accompanied by his aide-de-camp Petka (Петька, "Peter"), as well as Anka the Machine-Gunner  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_jokes#Chapayev

 Vasili Ivanovitch, go on swimming! Don't stop! Vasily Ivanovitch, strive! Vasili Ivanovitch, throw already this heavy chemedan kibinimat!

 my negotiation post, was exiled from the victor sanches threadto  Написал идиот -junk thread- oops! not at "τεχνική"?
no! it's in "discussing business board"!  which is a private area!
but wasn't it in "τεχνική" earlier today? i'm confused.
so I can't quote it?
hmm...
(where was the panther post  posted originally?)

so, I'll post this in the Sanchez  thread, to make it visible.

Russia. 1917AD.
Wounded Red Army commander Chapaev tries to cross the Ural river, but he catches enemy'a bullet. Looks like this is the end… But all of a suddena tractor beam from the space delivers Vasiliy Ivanovich to the space ship. After the chain of inhuman experiments, about which Chapaev would better forget, aliens transform his body into a killer-machine - terminator. This is where the story begins.
the leopard pic  (there in "junk" ) remind me of "the black panther" – a red-army game (according to - I'm not too proud to confess – some Russian ex of mine, the one who educated me with the Vasily Ivanovitch Chepaev franchise )
 
"black panter" game  goes: each officer pour himself half a glass vodka,   half - black beer. a servant enters the room, stipulating: "tovarishei, the panter  arrived!" each officer drinks half of his glass and ducks under the table.
the servant returns: "tovarishi, the panter have left!" the officers crawl back to their sits and fill their glasses with black beer. and so on.
the winner is the last who  manage to rise from under the table.
there is also a  "white panther", where the fill-up is vodka.

Telling jokes about the KGB was considered to be like pulling the tail of a tiger.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_political_jokes#KGB

Now the Pretchel hang-over quotes:

I rolled and staggered to the doorway.  The delicious morning lake air fled in front of an onslaught of heavy perfume.  Not knowing who to expect, what I saw inspired me to fake a sober air.

did he see his mother in low?  a starving forgotten ancient local god? a panther? a KGB (or more modernly FSB) agent?

x: …ceremonial hangover is an nice thought. ive never really thought about how that could be part of a tribal or spiritual group experience.

Here is an example to that – I bumped into it (call it "synchro" if you will) trying to find a vasily Ivanovitch pic

Stierlitz is a fictional Soviet intelligence officer, portrayed by Vyacheslav Tikhonov in the popular Soviet TV seriesSeventeen Moments of Spring.
Stierlitz wakes up in a prison cell. "Which identity should I use?" he wonders. "Let's see. If a person inblack uniform walks in, I must be in Germany so I'll say I'mStandartenführer Stierlitz. If they wear green uniform, I'm in USSR so I'll admit I'm Colonel Isayev". The door opens and a person in a grey uniform comes in saying, "You really should ease up on vodka, Comrade Tikhonov!"

hangovers are an good clean cheap renewable source of pure temporary anxiety. pure because it happens for no reason. well the reason is the hangover but even if you drank in a isolated white room, do nothing to harm yourself or embarrass yourself, it will still happen. and it will pass.

Which somehow remind me of a joke my dad was telling:
In a diplomatic party in Washington the Russian ambassador, excited with vodka, tells a comrad: "vasia, let's do something special! Let's express ourselves! Lets – let's shit on the piano!"
"leave it, my friend", answers Comrad J, "they wouldn't understand the  wholeheartedly Russian soul!"

X: an good clean cheap renewable source of pure temporary anxiety.

Is there such a thing as "a good anxiety"?
Are you overtaking anxiety deliberately, Are you looking for a handy source of anxiety of some sort, Chilba?
 Why?
 

if you know thats why the anxiety exists, it sorta breaks it, you just wait for it to pass. however, if you dont know - the brain automatically tries to reconcile or understand the anxiety or fear, resulting in - ta da - introspection at a deep level. hence sayings like 'i will never drink again' or 'im going to change'. it causes a person to go inside themselves, looking for a solution that doesnt exist.**

"and is it good?" as my late little girl would have asked here.
And my Chilba answers:

which is not really a bad thing.

Hmm. What's good in that loop?

i am enjoying this discussion so far, not annoying.

nice, but why did you exile my negotiation post to the junk? And once again behind the veil?
Cak dila, Preciousss AfroditaCak?
are you trying to humiliate me? turn the whole thing into a farce?
Farce is good. I think I can write a good one.
 "Russian practical jokes" could entertain us much, much longer***…
So, Chilba –
Would you claim it's a misunderstanding Again? as when I registered to forum4, When you said you have thought my first post was some more Russian span, thus you deleted it along with the user?
 I reckoned that your opening the sanchez thread was your accepting my single prior condition – that we go to the open?
Or did   Preciousss just contemptuously rejected my proposal, not even bothering to answer?
Wait a minute… I DID quote that suggestion – it is absent now, on both boards!
So the yuku "forum4" is also not immune from stuff being deleted??
Oo…
thus so far my thread (over there)  "negotiation II"
is incomprehensible to anyone outside! – for the offer to conduct negotiation is absent.
Grrrrr!
Well… to qote someone – incomprehensibility is so, so sexy!
-   Well… my term that you say as much as "yes" or "yes" was never met actually…
Oh, well, thus no negotiation.
And I thought Preciousss, you would feel at home…being so sweetly accustomed to negotiating in the cellar, near the garbage…
` `` ``` ````` ``` `` ` ` ` `

 
** doesn't exist? What about… not drinking?

*** "The guy over there saved my life yesterday, I am really grateful to him." / [???]" [a single shut]/ "The one that has fallen!"


 (this is a joke my mom was telling when inspired. yes, she had this tendency  for gross, shit and  fart jokes).Ivan, a soldier In the tzar army, could play the royal anthem from  behind;  thus in any celebration he was lifted  on a barrel, dropping his pants and trumpeting the anthem.
Years passed, times changed, now Ivan is a soldier in the red Army.
on a great triumph celebration his friends insisted: "Ivan – now that you are a red soldier – you should play the internazional!"
"well… I can try", Ivan said.
The barrel was positioned, Ivan climed it, droped his pants, and began trumpeting:
"Get up, branded with a curse,
The whole of hungry people and of slaves…"

until "We will destroy all the world with violence Completely" he got alright, but when he got to the new world, he went to shit!
http://www.dailyapkmod.com/2015/08/red-comrades-2-apk-v10-full-data.html

  The Internationale
 Get up, branded with a curse,
The whole of hungry people and of slaves.
Our indignant mind is boiling (with anger)
And ready to lead us in a mortal fight.
We will destroy all the world of violence
Completely, and then
We (will built) our (world), we will built the new world -
Who was nothing will become everything.
Chorus:
This is our last
And all-out fight.
By the international
The human generation will revive!
Nobody can make us free:
Neither God, nor tzar and nor a hero.
We'll get the liberation
By our own hands.
If you want to overthrow the oppression by your skillful hand,
To win back your property -
You should fire up the furnace and hammer boldly,
while the iron is still hot!
Only we, the workers of international
Of great army of labour
Have the right to own the ground
But spongers - they will get it never!
And if the great thunder rolls
Over the the pack of dogs and executioners
For us the sun will shine like it used to
With the light of its rays

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8bFsNyqvqw
 
edited twice by History and twice by me

[ju4o]

Mr x, "sayings like 'i will never drink again' or 'im going to change'. it causes a person to go inside themselves, looking for a solution that doesnt exist."

Tv z, "What about… not drinking?"

A good moment to bring in the other side of the story,

Gaspar Culan didn't believe the sun was a god.  At the age of twenty two, he had a plan.

[tally-ho!]

http://www.forum4.org/index.php?topic=81.msg1361#msg1361

it's a post i have written for this thread, but couldn't post for some time (and no wise-ass editor to blame!) - eventually, folowwing a hint, i opened new thread.

 seems now i can copy it here, delet it there.

any problem with anybody if i do that?
no answer i'll take for yes.
you (whoever) can answer somewhere else though.